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Patricia G
Member since Aug-9-05
1632 posts |
Apr-10-10, 10:03 AM (CST) |
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"Can Someone Explain Kindle Happenings?"
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Does anyone know what is behind all of the controversy around book's availability for Kindle? All of a sudden, books that were available no longer are. Two books I've been looking forward to, Winter Garden by Kristen Hannah and Savor The Moment by NR, have disappeared from availability. I have heard that the publishers withdrew their contracts. It has something to do with price fixing. What do Apple and iPad have to do with it? I was slow to warm up to the Kindle, but very much like the (formerly) easy availability of books and the ability to increase the font size when reading. I always felt the books, even discounted, were overpriced figuring production costs were so much less for the Kindle. Does anyone have accurate details? Patricia G |
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LisaA
Member since Aug-6-05
657 posts |
Apr-10-10, 11:10 AM (CST) |
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1. "RE: Can Someone Explain Kindle Happenings?"
In response to message #0
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Patricia, About a week or so ago there was a good post on the AAR News Blog about the Kindle Controversy. (sorry for all the quotes below, but it was better than for me to try to summarize) "To date ebooks have been sold under a classic retail model in which publishers sell to retailers who then sell to readers at a price set by the retailer. In the agency model, publishers set the price and retailers make a commission. Amazon is engaged in forging agreements with various publishers — some are still holdouts . The bottom line for readers is that higher prices than we’ve seen in the past will probably be the result." Here's the link to the full post:
http://www.likesbooks.com/blog/?p=4145&cpage=1#comments Another reader posted a comment that shared some additional information: "The relation to Apple – with the launch of the new IPAD, Apple entered into an agreement with these 5 publishers that no other retailer would be able to sell ebooks for less than they will in their iboookstore.(aka: the "Agency Model") All but Random House agreed, well aside from independent publishers such as Smashwords. The requirements as I understand them are that the publishers will set the price for ebooks and any retailer selling them will have to comply. No coupons or discounts or other incentives can be offered. So essentially you will pay the same price for that ebook no matter where you shop, unless it’s a Random House book." The 5 agencies supposedly are Hachette, Harper Collins, Penguin, Simon Shuster and MacMillan and of course their subsidiaries (here's a link to the full list:
http://www.booksonboard.com/index.php?F=ebooks-list-of-agency-model-publishers She also raises a very good point about how traditional "print book customers would feel if they were told they could no longer pick up a paperback at Target or Walmart at a discount, or using their B&N discount card for 10% off. It would be easier to swallow if there was such a thing as ‘fair pricing’ but when you have ebooks that cost $2-$3 more than you would pay for the paperback, it adds up." I've pre-ordered for my Kindle the new Brides book from Nora Roberts, "Savor the Moment" which is one of the books that has been hijacked by the Agency Model pricing. I'm royally peeved. I hope this gets resolved soon. e-reader customers should not be penalized!!! |
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Patricia G
Member since Aug-9-05
1632 posts |
Apr-10-10, 01:49 PM (CST) |
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2. "RE: Can Someone Explain Kindle Happenings?"
In response to message #0
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Thanks Lisa. I did read that blog and the responses. I agree with what many posters said about the avid readers being about the only customer base for investing in an electronic reader. We, their most loyal customer base, are the ones being taken to the monopoly club. The person who picks up a book or two, every now and then, still gets to take advantage of special pricing. The second post you quoted was what had me wondering about the driving force behind this. I love and use Apple products, but their marketing strategy is very coersive. This seems to resemble their M.O. so I wondered if the release of the iPad stimulated this movement. Patricia G |
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katenz
Member since Oct-11-08
893 posts |
Apr-11-10, 03:40 AM (CST) |
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5. "RE: Can Someone Explain Kindle Happenings?"
In response to message #0
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Patricia really good question and discussion, even though we can't get the Kindle in NZ I am always interested. Sounds all hugely unfair. In regard to the Winter Garden, I have just finished listening to it, rather than reading it, it was a fantasic listen, Susan Erikson does a fabulous job. Wow, powerful story, very sad, but very uplifting too. I highly recommend the listen. Kate
New Zealand http://mistea.edublogs.org/ |
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Linou
Member since Apr-14-08
760 posts |
Apr-11-10, 01:56 PM (CST) |
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7. "RE: Can Someone Explain Kindle Happenings?"
In response to message #0
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This whole thing is not limited to Kindle ebooks, it affects every ebook published by these 5 publishers in every format and it's SO frustrating. I have a Cybook Gen3 which works with Mobipocket format and since April 1, I basically can't buy ebooks anymore (SEP ebooks aren't available to me anymore for example).
Jane from Dear Author wrote some great posts on the subject, the last one today:
http://dearauthor.com/wordpress/2010/04/11/indoctrinated-into-discounts/Between that and the geographical restrictions, I really feel like publishers couldn't care less about me as an ebook reader. But, hey, I do pay the books too ! Seriously, I've bought more books since I have my Cybook than ever before. And if the publishers' plan is to bring ebook readers back to print books, it's not going to happen for me ! Living in France, I have the choice between:
- buying books at the few local bookstores that sell the kind of books I read in English, for minimum 10€
- ordering them on Amazon.fr and having to wait 1 to 3 weeks before receiving them (when I receive them: 2 of my past orders got lost somewhere, never to be found again)
- or buying them in ebook format, paying between 5 to 8$ (which for me means 3 to 6€) and receiving them immediately.
Uhm, tough one ! I'm not going back to print. And if this pricing thing lasts, I have enough books in my TBR pile for the next year. I love ebooks but sorry, I just won't pay so much more for an ebook the publisher didn't have to print or ship than for a print book. Okay, rant over ! Sorry, this situation just frustates me so much (as you might have guessed!) Linou
France |
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Patricia G
Member since Aug-9-05
1632 posts |
Apr-11-10, 02:07 PM (CST) |
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8. "RE: Can Someone Explain Kindle Happenings?"
In response to message #0
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Another facet to this whole marketing ploy is the small independent bookseller. The huge companies could buy in bulk and undercut through discounting the price a small bookseller could afford to charge. It put many if not most independent booksellers out of business. Now, when we have a technology where I can't see how independent companies can hope to participate in sales, the big guys want to fix the prices. I'm not usually a conspiracy theorist but... If it's the publishers behind this, I'm disgusted. If it is someone else we need some transparency to it all to discover if this is even legal. Patricia G |
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Linda in PA
Member since Feb-11-08
1191 posts |
Apr-11-10, 11:26 PM (CST) |
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10. "RE: Can Someone Explain Kindle Happenings?"
In response to message #0
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Here is an article trying to parse the economics of books, called The Math of Publishing Meets the Ebook: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/01/business/media/01ebooks.html The chart within the article makes it easier to see. Click on "The Economics of Pricing a Book" for the complete chart. This isn't from a reader's point of view at all but it it does include some ballpark publishing numbers, for what it's worth. I also remember reading quite a while ago that it was Amazon's strategy to price ebooks much lower from the beginning, even at a loss if necessary, in order to sell their own product--Kindle--to get out front with customers, to get them committed to Kindle in order to forestall future e-readers. Nook didn't cause waves, but it sure looks like iPad opened the door. |
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Patricia G
Member since Aug-9-05
1632 posts |
Apr-11-10, 11:55 PM (CST) |
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11. "RE: Can Someone Explain Kindle Happenings?"
In response to message #10
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Thanks Linda. That is what I was looking for. You can see that the source of these numbers is the publishing industry. You have to trust them to be accurate. Their accounting kind of reminds me of Hollywood producers accounting when it comes time for profit sharing. Some of those expenses are fixed, such as digitalizing and editing. Why then would the expense be higher for that line item if they charge more for the book? Their marketing numbers are also a bit wacky. There must be huge overlap in results from marketing between purchases of hardbacks and of electronic versions. They appear to duplicate that cost to give the appearance of less profit for the publisher. My conclusion from this information is that the authors and the readers are hugely disadvantaged while the publisher increases their profits. Patricia G |
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Linda in PA
Member since Feb-11-08
1191 posts |
Apr-12-10, 01:06 AM (CST) |
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12. "RE: Can Someone Explain Kindle Happenings?"
In response to message #11
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I came away with the same conclusion: that whatever happens, business will maintain its profit and if anyone takes it on the chin, it will be readers and authors. A couple of thoughts, though, about the editing and marketing points you made: The initial manuscript editing should be the same for both print and digital--between the editor and the author. But the second stage of production--editing for the printing press set-up has to hit a set page count, and there is editing for word and line breaks, page breaks, opening a chapter on a new page, etc. And that would be different from what is required for an ereader, which doesn't need new pages for chapters or a set page count (right?), and word and line breaks must be more flexible because you can adjust the size of the type of your ereader (making line and word break editing unnecessary). The additional production costs for ereaders I think would be for adding the text formatting code for a digital reader This is assuming that the publisher is producing both paper and digital books at the same time. As for marketing, I think the chart is saying that online ad costs are in addition to what they do at brick and mortar stores with signs, author set-ups and so on. I remember when one of SEP's books came out there were cardboard endcaps at our Borders with special SEP info--which Borders received from the publisher. It is the same book to a certain point, but I think there are some legitimate overlapping costs at the production backend. That said, it's obvious publishers would make the most with the 12.99 e-book model (and the authors less, probably because of digital contracts?) which is exactly what they're trying for, I guess. If there were only digital books (no printed pages, bookstores or printing presses--JOBS!), publishing prices could come down a lot more I think. Print publishing has been in trouble for years, so the e-books must be the big new hope. I may be waaaay off, but just some thoughts. |
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Patricia G
Member since Aug-9-05
1632 posts |
Apr-12-10, 08:29 AM (CST) |
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13. "RE: Can Someone Explain Kindle Happenings?"
In response to message #12
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Linda,
I agree with your point that there is an additional cost to edit for translating something from print to digital. But the cost should be the same whether they charge 9.99 or 12.99 for the book. You can see that they are able to edit a 9.99 book for .38, while a 12.99 book costs .50 for editing. Doesn't make sense.The marketing is additional for bookstore displays, appearances and other items for printed books. I do think that they market printed books with significant online advertising already. I don't know what additional expenses they would incur. These discrepancies still don't account for 3.00 difference in pricing from recent past ebook prices to proposed future prices. I guess the most falacious item in thier list is the profit the bookseller makes for printed material. When was the last time you actually paid full price for a hardback? If you are paying less, it is the bookseller who has less income. So their proposal has the bookseller (electronic) making a fixed amount, the author making less, and the reader paying more. I can't imagine why publishers would want something like that (sarcasm). Patricia G |
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Linda in PA
Member since Feb-11-08
1191 posts |
Apr-12-10, 11:01 AM (CST) |
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14. "RE: Can Someone Explain Kindle Happenings?"
In response to message #13
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My guess if that the difference in pricing for ebooks is quality and quantity related. In books I worked on were higher sales were expected, more man hours were spent getting them just right. For lower expectation, the books got a lick and a promise and were hustled out the door. You can see that in printed books now. Better selling authors have fewer editing mistakes and much nicer covers. Other authors the publisher has less confidence in get cheesier covers and you can tell they've likely been run through spellcheck. My assumption is that the lower priced ebook means cuts along the line. But that's just a guess. My other thought is that if ebooks came out right now--today--and you could buy them for 12.99 instead of 26.00, everyone would be thrilled at the savings. Amazon and Kindle are are the difference because they set expectations, and we don't know the real economics there--if Amazon did or di not take losses in order too sell Kindle. I'm not on the publishers side--please don't think that. I just know that margins in publishing aren't that great. No one goes into publishing to get rich. A few might--like the few movie stars who make it--but most still have day jobs. |
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LisaA
Member since Aug-6-05
657 posts |
Apr-12-10, 12:01 PM (CST) |
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15. "RE: Can Someone Explain Kindle Happenings?"
In response to message #14
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I agree, Linda, that Amazon set expectations with its $9.99 pricing, and that if prices were introduced at $12.99 for a printed book that was priced at $26.00, we'd be thrilled. I just want the pricing to reflect the cost savings culled from not printing hard copies, even if it is just a slight difference. Rather, my main objection is the way publishers are handling the pricing disputes. It really peeves me that publishers are punishing loyal customers by pulling books during this whole pricing fiasco! It also really peeves me when they hold back release dates of e-books, or don't offer all books in Kindle or other e-formats. You don't treat your best customers that way. I really hope they get this figured out soon. LisaA in Washington state |
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Linda in PA
Member since Feb-11-08
1191 posts |
Apr-12-10, 02:51 PM (CST) |
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16. "RE: Can Someone Explain Kindle Happenings?"
In response to message #15
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Don't you think it's the readers themselves who will likely decide what happens? If readers keep buying ebooks at the new higher prices or even go back to hardbacks, publishers'll win and keep the higher prices. That's what publishers are waiting to see--what will fly. If there's a reader revolt of some kind where folks go to libraries or to UBSs, publishers will have to re-think. It's based on what the public will tolerate. The whole thing isn't about loyalty at all, like there is between some authors and their readers, or Amazon and Kindle owners; it's really all about business and making money. And this may be just another round, like the previous one between Amazon and MacMillan. New technological advances may mean more of this down the road too. I can't help but think of the changes in music in my lifetime as an example: 78s from my grandparents, to 45s, 33s, reel to reel, 8-track tapes, audio tapes, CDs, iPods and all what else. Or the one-time battle between Beta and VHS video tapes, that is now onto DVDs and Blu-Ray. There's a joke in the movie "Men in Black" where Tommy Lee Jones shows Will Smith some kind of small new music device that will replace CDs, and TLJ says, "I guess I'll have to buy (the Beatles) White Album again." I thought that line summed up the march of technology just about right.
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katenz
Member since Oct-11-08
893 posts |
Apr-12-10, 03:42 PM (CST) |
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18. "RE: Can Someone Explain Kindle Happenings?"
In response to message #17
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I am "pleased" this happened when it has. I was seriously thinking of getting a kindle posted ot my niece in Australia and picking it up when I go there in July. Now the desire has totally gone. I will wait to see what happens, and maybe it will be never. Sigh! Kate
New Zealand http://mistea.edublogs.org/ |
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Linou
Member since Apr-14-08
760 posts |
Apr-13-10, 06:43 PM (CST) |
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19. "RE: Can Someone Explain Kindle Happenings?"
In response to message #0
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This pricing thing is crazy. I just received BooksOnBoard's newsletter, annoncing that HapperCollins books are back, with some at their lowest prices ever. So I went over at BoB to check it out and the prices are just all over the place. I can't understand the logic of it. I checked a few authors I know write for Avon:
SEP's books cost between 4,99$ (NBC) and 9,99$ (Ain't),
Suzanne Enoch's books from 3,99$ to 12,99$,
Rachel Gibson's books from 4,99$ to 10,99$,
Julia Quinn's books from 1,99$ (??? I know I complained about too high prices but 1,99$ ? That seems almost too cheap) to 12,99$, with the seconde epilogue to An Offer from a Gentleman, a very short story, at 10,99$ (!!!),
and my favorite: Joss Ware's (great) postapocalyptic trilogy: the 1st one costs 10,99$, the 2nd 1,99$ and the last one 5,99$. How can there be a 10$ difference between books by the same author published back to back over 3 months ?
I don't know if it's a glitch but this seems rather weird. Linou
France |
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